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Welcome Back to the Discount Property Investor Podcast Episode 12! Be a Rhino with Ray Bartle. Thank you for sharing some time with us today. In this episode, the hosts go in-depth with Ray Bartle. Ray is a long-time wholesaler in St. Louis and mentor coach for the South Side Investment Club’s Inner Circle program. Ray encourages all of you to be a Rhino!
Thanks for tuning in.
David: Hi guys welcome back to the discount property investor podcast. This is episode 12; Be a Rhino with Ray Bartle, I am your host David Dodge with co-host Mike Slane and Ray Bartle. Ray will be joining us today to talk about the basics of wholesaling, that will be the topic of our discussion for today. Basics of wholesaling, don’t forget to check us out at discountpropertyinvestor.com.
Ray I am going to let you have the floor and we are going to jump right in, basics of wholesaling.
Ray: Ok, thanks. Welcome everyone, today I am going to go over wholesaling, the basics, most of the time people get confused on what wholesaling is. So I am going to take you through the three areas of how you can wholesale properties and kind of give you and overall feel for how to get into the wholesaling business.
So first of all out website of course is freewholesalecource.com, sign up there and make sure you sign up for our podcast.
A little bit about me, again — I am one of the partners here at discount property investor. My background, my family, more blue collar, my step father worked at [00:01:47.23 – inaudible] for 30 years and I am pretty much a blue collar family, grew up the ranks. I went to South east Missouri State which is — university here in Missouri. One of the first people in my family to graduate from college and actually ended up getting an NBA into a masters in business administration.
I was your typical guy, went through college and got an education, was always told to go out and get a great job, stay at the same company for 30 years — doesn’t happen anymore right? I think I have changed jobs at least 10 or 12 times till we finally decided we are going to be our own business.
I am a dot comer of the 90s so my background is technology. I actually purchased my first house when I was 22 years old, so I have been in real estate a long time. Actually another thing I’ve done, I’m a founding member of a R.I.E.A here in St Louis called the South side investment club. We currently have over 3000 members online. You can check us out at meetup.com, and you can see what we are doing here in St Louis. Actually I am a real estate broker here to in the State of Missouri, so that’s kind of my background.
So what I want to get into is exactly what we are going to cover today. So the first thing, I think the biggest thing about real estate is attitude. So as you can see on your screen, don’t be this guy. I don’t know how many times I go to – I go to meetings and raise your hand and how many people have been coming to more than three seminars, three different meetings and they are basically just sitting on the couch, playing video games — don’t ever get out and do anything, so what I try to tell people is do something. Your attitude is everything, and the other thing, a lot of your family members are going to tell you that you can’t do that, you’re a tech guy, how can you be a real estate guy? Just have a good attitude about the business, it really works. One thing I will suggest to people is this book, it’s weird but it’s called ‘Rhinoceros success’. In this business you have to be a Rhino in my opinion. In fact Ray’s Rhino’s is a group here in St Louis but — . Rhino’s make it happen, if you think about it, a Rhino is a 3000lb piece of meat just charging down the road, nothing gets in their way and this is how you have to do this business. You got to keep going forward, forward and forward, and quit listening to people, you got little bitty ears like the Rhino’s, you don’t want to listen to what all these people say, it can’t be done, you’re a tech guy. How many times have I heard that?
So I said be a Rhino, not a cow. Keep charging, mostly — people like what does that mean Ray? Well Rhinos are charging down, they are getting houses, they are building their business. Cows are sitting in a field chewing grass and cud and waiting to become hamburger. So — that’s the choice you have. In this business I always say, go forward and learn something. What do you think? Everybody thinks I get passionate. I am passionate about this.
David: I have never heard that analogy I love it.
Ray: Read the book you’ll get it, here’s actually Scott Anderson — actually I have a signed autograph of his book, he wrote it when he was like 26 years old. But basically he is the author, I give him credit for it, I just say keep charging.
The other thing, the next thing after you — you decide hey i can make this happen; I am not going to sit on the couch and play video games all day. You got to figure out — who are you? What’s your profile? What’s — we called it GOSPA, GOSPA strategy which Bill is going to cover in an upcoming webinar but — basically what that means is who are you? And who are you not? Are you a rehabber? That type of person is organised, they are aggressive, they like to plan. They are planners, they like hands on, project orientated — they are kind of artistic because you have to go into a building and say, knock this wall out, open this up, put the bath — you’re somewhat artistic and you love to see things built.
Now wholesaler, what I’m talking about today, we are kind of gamblers. We are deal makers, we are sales type people, high energy, self-starters, we can relate to people well, and we are a tight A plus, and that’s pretty much the wholesale attitude and their type of personality. Now, if you are not that type of person and you are not a rehabber, the third category I always go to is landlord. That person is a conservative person, they are pretty thrifty, they are a saver, a planner. They basically are thinking long term, they can look at a house and say, here is a house I can buy, rent it out, and make a few hundred bucks, 300 buckets a month. But in ten years this thing is going to be worth $50,000 more.
So that is the three investment types and personalities that I think — you have to be real with yourself, who are you? Are you one or the other? Well today we are talking about wholesalers, as you can tell — that is kind of where I play. So if you want to be a wholesaler, so basically what is wholesaling? Well, a lot of people call it flipping properties, selling contracts. Now when people say they flip properties, what does that mean? You buy it, fix it and sell it? You’re a rehabber. If you just get a contract and you sell that contract, you’re a wholesaler, that’s pretty much the difference. You are buying below market and you are selling below market. You are picking the spread up in the process. Basically you control real estate by putting it under contract and selling it to another investor. You can basically have a $100,000 you have control of for very little earnest money. Just think about it, I give a guy 100 bucks, I have a $100,000 house, I have control of that, and that is what we are going to teach you here today.
In the spread sometimes can be, 500 bucks, 2000, 10,000 and more. Some people say I make 800,000 wholesale — I’ve been in the business since 1981, and I have not done an $800,000 one, I’d love to do one but I have done some 10,000 plus so. It’s really do a lot of sales type things, the more you do the better you get at it. But the spreads are not — like a rehabber, they are going to put the money down, they are expected to make more money than you are as a wholesaler. In order for you to keep being a wholesaler, you have to make sure the prices you give your rehabbers are enough that they are making money too. Don’t get greedy and put too much money on it.
Here is the top ten reasons I believe people are so interested in wholesaling. It is a great way to get started for newbies. People that just start, start in wholesaling. I was a little different, I started out as a rehabber, and then I got into wholesaling because as I did marketing I would have more projects coming in than I wanted to do, so I would sell to my buddies, my investor buddies and make a few thousand dollars. That is pretty much how I got into wholesaling, probably 15 years ago.
Good thing about wholesaling is it provides you quick profits. You can get something under contract right, one day, 10 days, 15 days later you’re getting paid. The rehabber its six or seven months probably.
**talk over each other**
Ray: That’s the beauty of it, its quick money.
David: You make a really good point though. Just your story about backing into wholesaling, kind of back into it. So anyone that is out there that is already doing real estate — as a rehabber you got to keep in mind, if you are coming across great deals, here is another way to monetize that is through wholesaling.
Ray: Exactly. Like you were saying, you don’t want to stop your marketing because once it’s like a train, pulling a train along, when a train starts moving, boom, boom, boom as every car hooks together. Well when you stop your marketing, guess what? The train stops and goes boom, boom, boom, boom but you got to get it going boom, boom, boom again to get your marketing going. So never stop marketing. Never stop marketing.
The other good thing also about wholesaling, you don’t need capital, I have never had anyone ask me for a credit check of anything. Never asked me if I have the money really — I had 100 bucks — so I could get a contract. No credit, you don’t need credit, just a little knowledge that you are going to learn with us on this webinar. Low risk, I mean lost risk because you have a contract, ok so it doesn’t work out you lose 100 bucks, what the heck. Sometimes you get your money back in the areas that we will teach you here in this course.
Good thing about wholesaling, way to get extra income quickly. Another thing, maybe you don’t want to be a landlord, maybe you don’t want to be a rehabber. You’re the kind of Wild, Wild West guy that wants to go out and get contracts and — wants some fast money, that’s the good thing about wholesaling. There are so many cash buyers out here today, and people don’t believe this but, if I have a good deal, I never have problems getting rid of it. The problem is — wouldn’t you agree? It’s not a problem of can I sell it? Its — I have to get a price, under contract, and there will be people lined up. The beauty of wholesaling, you don’t need a real estate licence. Although I do have one, mainly I got it because when i did rehab. When I listed property, I didn’t want to be the 60% or 70% I just wanted to pay a littler amount of money to the buyer’s agent. Sometimes I didn’t pay anything because I sold it myself.
David: Hey Ray this is actually a really great list; I want to do a quick recap if you don’t mind?
Ray: Go ahead.
David: So Ray just talked about the top ten reasons to wholesale, let’s do a recap. So number one great way to get started for newbies. Guys, you don’t need to have tons of experience to wholesale. Get out there, you can do this day one. Number two, wholesaling provides quite profits. So true and these profits don’t take months, like Ray mentioned a minute ago, you can get paid out in days to weeks. Number three, requires little, sometimes no capital. Number four, you do not have to have great credit, you don’t need any credit to do this business. Number five, just — need a little knowledge, you don’t need a ton of knowledge to get started. And really what was provided in freelwholesalecouse.com is basically what you need to know to get started today. Six low risk guys, not a lot of risk involved, just the earnest money and often times you can get it back. Number 7, need extra income, this is a great way to make extra money in real estate, you can even do this part time. Number eight, you do not want to be a landlord, or you don’t want to be a landlord — this is a way to get involved in real estate, you don’t need to buy properties and manage people. You can manage the contracts for the most part. Number nine, a lot of cash buyers looking for properties as Ray mentioned, we do not have problems selling good deals, they sell themselves, it’s easy to sell a good deal, often times — a couple of text messages and word of mouth and it will sell. It is not hard at all guys, and number ten, you do not need to be a licences real estate agent or broker. Me personally, I am not licenced — and we do several deals a week. So I just wanted to give you a quick recap, that’s an awesome list you put together here Ray, thanks for sharing.
Ray: No problem, I get a little bit excited about it if you can’t tell. The next thing about wholesaling and real estate in general — there is kind of a formula that everyone seems to be going to which we call MAO– maximum allowable offer. That’s pretty much what we call — after repair value which we call ARV. After repair value means, when I buy this house, I fix this house and I sell this house on the market as a retail sale, what price can I get? What’s the value when I get done? That’s the tricky part of the business; we will address that here later on. You take that number, ARV times 60 or 70%, now the rehabbers are going to be on the 70% area, so wholesalers will typically be lower than that. Sometimes people back it to the number where they say 70% — might make 5000, take 5000 off. Or some people start at 50-60% but you got to figure out what percentage, especially every area is different some areas you got to get 40%, some areas you got to pay 80, isn’t that right Dave?
David: Oh yeah absolutely. In St Louis, we go as low as 30%, some of these areas that a very, very undesirable – we will go as high as 80. Very rarely 85 but 80 is pretty much the higher end.
Ray: Also the repair so, basically the repairs you think it’s going to take to fix the property. Kitchen bathroom, you got to be able to add these numbers up, so there is math involved in this business. Also, I share this with the sellers when i go out to make an offer, they say why are you are 50-70% Ray? I say, you got to carry it, you got to pay the taxes, you got to get insurance, you know — while we own it we got to put utilities, we got the cut the yard, and guess what? At the end of the day, I tell the seller, believe it or not we are in this to make a profit and most of the time they laugh, they are like, we know that but — anyway. That is why we start, I explain it to sellers, and I show them the comps while I’m there at times if they get really interested.
David: One thing I do want to add in here is that — the repairs are sometimes really difficult. In the freewholesalecourse.com, we actually have a simple pdf that you can download that — it just lays out basic repairs for low, middle and high end rehab, so check it out online guys, freewholesalecourse.com, in the repair module there is an area where we have a download to help you estimate those repairs.
Ray: That’s a great part that goes into my next slide. Kitchens can cost from anywhere from 5 -10,000, [00:15:10.22 – inaudible] 50,000 on just the kitchen. So it depends on what area you’re in. Bathrooms — like Dave said, on our website we had this kind of set up for wholesalers where you can just go check, check, check and come out and say it’s a $20,000 rehab. Always have — I put some numbers up here — this is St Louis market, other areas of the market — California is going to be higher, the mid-west is kinda where I’m at — Texas and maybe a little about the same actually.
Dave like you mentioned that little form we put together is really powerful for getting started.
David: It is, absolutely.
Ray: Ok so the next thing, we are all excited about wholesaling, how do we make money at wholesaling? Well — my opinion is three different options, three different ways. First option which is my favorite, you can close the purchase and sale simultaneously, it’s called a double close. There is no capital required, and if you do what we call a dry close, you don’t have to bring any money. Some title companies require you, or some lenders if you are doing short sales and that sort of thing, will require that you bring a check, so that’s pretty much you do need capital for that for at least a few minutes or a day. A lot of times that will come into — what’s that service called? One — yeah transactional funding, I’m sorry. Transactional funding which we are looking to get into so that’s one area we can also talk about. But double close is my favorite because most of the time that’s how I got started, I didn’t need any money. Here is an easy way to — if you want to add something to that David?
David: I just wanted to mention that every State is going to have different rules and different laws. We are fortunate enough in the state of Missouri where — we don’t need to have transactional funding — most of the time. In some of the times we will need to have transactional funding if the lender that we are selling it to requires we own the property first. But, 9 times out 10 in our State which is Missouri we can dry close the deal, where we won’t have to come to closing with any money. So what I do want to just throw in here, in a side note is check with your local title companies in the State that you’re in, because everyone is going to have a little bit of different rules and laws — but if you are in good State and I hope you are, then you can do double closes, we call them dry funding because you don’t need to have any money. You can align your A to B and B to C contracts for the same day and — show up with nothing and leave with a check.
Ray: It’s a beautiful thing. Here is a kind of picture of how this things works, so here is a wholesaling double close. So it’s real — I think when you see something in a picture, you can see it. So A and B, you will hear this a lot. A and B, B, C like Dave was saying. A, B is the first contract, as you can see I just offered the A who actually owns the property today, a $40,000 contract I signed and gave it to them for signature so right now for 100 bucks I have a $40,000 contract under control. So as David said, I text my buddy who is a C buyer — and I write another contract with C — 50,000 hey I can make 10,000 on this thing. So I got two contracts.
David: Now Ray, let me just help out here for the folks that aren’t seeing these actual images here on the podcast.
Ray: Good point.
David: So A would be your motivated seller, ok so B would be us in the middle as the wholesalers. So we would market out to our motivated sellers and we would go get a contract with A so that’s you’re A to B. So we would then control the contract, we would control the property. And then we would then take that contract and we would sell it, now Ray mentioned C buyer. B, C, so we are always in the middle at B. We have a contract with A, and then we turn around and sell it to C. To illustrate the image that we have here on the video series, the A to B contract is 40k, $40,000. The B to C, we then take that contract and sell it to C for $50,000, we then have a $10,000 spread.
Ray: And there it is, the $10,000 spread. This is technically, you will probably have to pay some title fees but, technically A to B is 40, B to C is 50, you get the difference, you are the B straight in the middle. So that’s a double close.
The second way, the second option — on — how to wholesale to make money is you sign the contract, to wholesaler and let them close, it’s called — you need to have an assignment agreement which we have a one pager on the website that you can use to get the assignment. The way that works — is — first of all, I have a contract again, I’m B, I have a contract with A, who actually owns the house today, is the motivated seller, I am B the wholesaler, I have it on contract, I talk to my C, hey C I will give you this contract, I have one contract and I assign it to C as an assignment fee, in this case $10,000. So the way that works is at closing, unless you can get C to pay you before closing which most of the time they probably won’t. But, at the closing table they will have $10,000 line item on the hood or settlement statement with your name or company for $10,000. So when C closes, your check will be cut to you. C gets the property; he goes on and makes his money as a rehabber.
David: One of the benefits Ray of doing the assignment is that you don’t even need to go to the closing table. You can literally use a one page assignment agreement, and you can sell your contract to your rehabber, your landlord, your end buyer, and they go to the closing table and they sign, they pay and you just get paid out at closing. They can either mail you a check or wire it to you, or you can pick it up, however works the best for ya. Assignments are the best and they are the best, however — you have to be very transparent when you are using assignments.
Ray: That’s right.
David: Mike, can you touch on real quick why you would want to double close a deal versus why you would want to do an assignment? What are the pros and cons?
Mike: Sure, I guess the other pro to using an assignment — David said, it’s easy. You don’t have to show up; the other one is that there is no cost to you as the B wholesaler. You are not paying your closing costs in this instance. You are only having one transaction so it’s the A to C, so there is only one set of closing costs in here and you do not have to pay it.
David: That is a very good point.
Mike: So when are you going to use an assignment versus a double close? It really just depends on your comfort level with the buyer. A lot of people talk about profits and I have even said it in the past, anything over 5000 and I am going to try and do a double closing just to kind of protect it. I always say if depends if you know your C buyer. If they are comfortable paying you $25,000 for a property, and they know that it’s worth it, then they are going to pay it.
David: Yeah, simplify the whole process, but — if you –don’t feel comfortable or they don’t feel comfortable knowing that you are making that kind of money, then you can hide it by double closing. That is a very good point.
Mike: Right, so if we are talking a million dollar house, and you are making a $25,000 fee, they might be comfortable with that.
David: That’s not that much.
Mike: That’s not a big deal, but it’s knowing your buyer, I think to get started I would recommend using the double closing in most cases, finding a title company that is going to work with you and is going to give you investor rates so you don’t end up having to pay.
David: You have a great point Mike, if you have a million dollar house, $25,000 is nothing, but if you are paying five grand for it and selling it for 30 that changes everything.
Mike: So there is a lot of different variable, but again in my opinion it’s your comfort level with your C buyer so.
Ray: Some of those C buyers have a hard time if you make 5000 so sometimes — it depends, eventually what will happen in wholesaling is you have a set of C buyers that are calling you for property. So you will know who is willing to pay and who is not. That’s the best part of the wholesaling game because you will know — you will sell multiple properties to the same guys over and over. You can’t find enough is the problem right now.
So a third way, option three is that you can close on the contract and at some point in the future — you sell it. Now for this — I don’t know who coined this phrase David, but wholesaling. I spelt it like that — other people spell it other ways, I don’t know how you spell it, it hasn’t been coined yet. But probably five or six years ago somebody said wholesaling, hey I like that name. So I kind of took it from them. So in this case — you need money for this. So you go to a house, it has so much stuff in it, nobody can see the bathroom. But you know it’s a heck of a deal, maybe you are willing to crawl over all the boxes and stuff to see what’s in there. But the next person — the C buyer comes in, he’s not going to see it, he can’t see the value. So what we do is that we buy the house, we clean it up, — more of a paint and carpet kind of thing at the most. Let’s say I clean it all out, I have a dumpster full of junk. Now people can actually walk through the house — I may do a little painting here and there, not a lot of money, and then I put it back on the market so that I can get a bigger amount of money based on actually buying the property. Does that make sense?
David: Perfect example. So — option three, I want to simplify this for our listeners and our views here. It just means you buy it, so you close on it. Then you sell it at a future time. So option one was double close, option two is an assignment, option three you have multiple exit strategies. So wholesaling is one of those exit strategies, you buy it, you clean it up a little bit then you list it or sell it to a retail buyer. The other way to do option three is just buy it and still sell it at a discount to another person without doing the paint and carpet. Maybe you do a little clean up, maybe you don’t. Maybe you just buy it and hold it for a week or two.
Ray: Here is a nice picture — here is a property that you buy, you got a guy to wholesale it, one contract — and you just clean it up a little bit, wow we cleaned that one up.
David: For those listening, we got a shack and a mansion right next to each other.
Ray: It’s not like that actually, but you get the idea I think, that’s wholesale. It’s the third one we kind of teach you.
David: It’s a really great strategy, really — some of the best deals you can do in this business are done via wholesale, they do require a little bit of money, but you don’t have to have money necessarily. There is hard money lenders out there, and private money investors that you can partner with and you can use their money and split the deals with them. Earlier Ray mentioned, when you have a great deal, they sell themselves, they really do. If you come across a really great deal, go to a R.I.E.A and find someone who is doing a ton of deals or has money and partner with them. If it’s a good deal and they see the numbers make sense. You are going to have people fighting each other to partner with you on these deals so —
Ray: Yeah, bring it to me.
David: That’s right.
Ray: Ok here we go, in summary, to be successful — the one thing — the ARV is important, you need to be able to determine the comparable. Those recent sales in the area, I am sure we will address that in the series but you have to be able to have good comps. Again, we talked about estimate repairs; you have to be able to get a good repair. But the beauty of being a wholesaler is — let’s say you are wrong, you miss something, a foundation problem something like that. Guess what? If you have three or four other guys who are going to buy the house from you, walk through the house, they will see that, as long as you have an out, you can get out of the contract. Or maybe you lose your 100 bucks. So you always have a backup there. You have to have some contracts to wholesale the property, you can use your local — real estate agent type contracts, agreements or you can get online and find them. Or even talk to a local attorney.
David: We have added one contract to the free wholesale course, this is a very, very basic contract, it is a one pager. And it is probably one about three quarters of a page long, it is very basic — and we are giving this one away for free, we definitely recommend you write your own contract or hire an attorney to get your own contract, or work with an agent to get a contract. But, the one that we are giving away for free, its one page, it is super, super simple. The reason that we are giving it away is because you don’t need a 30 page contract to do these deals. One page is really all you need, I personally use one that is two or three pages and I kind of vary between different contracts. But the one that we are giving away I have used 10-15 times myself. It’s not rocket science, you just need something, it lays out what’s happening here, I’m buying this property from this person and I am paying this amount and we are closing on this period, that’s it.
Ray: That’s good, our attorney did review that, but he isn’t all over country, he’s Missouri mainly. Anyway that’s contracts; you are going to need those. As I said your personality, you got to have some [00:28:32.27 – inaudible] got to let people trust you to let you have access to their property. Buyers list to sell, David did that, hit your local R.E.I.A, you have to have a title company that will do wholesaling, some title companies will not do wholesaling, you have to find out. Most of the time you will find out at your local R.E.I.A just ask around.
So that’s pretty much the summary of wholesaling, it is a really great way to get into real estate at a very reasonable price — it’s a way that you can make a lot of money, you can work as hard as you want. Like I said, there are three different ways to wholesale. You can double close, you can assign the contract or you can do what I call wholesale.
Last but not least, we have some upcoming events we are going to be providing people. We are going to be able to provide people some of the online marketing tools that we use here at Discount property investor. Also we are going to be able to — as we get locally into your R.E.I.A’s we are going to be able to get with a local person there to help put a system together to be able to get comparable — comparable or comps, straight off the MLS data locally. That is going to be a longer process but it is capable, we have that here in St Louis and Illinois on the Illinois side through — a system that we are using. DPI we will also be making some visits to your local investment clubs as our business continues to grow and as we get more and more people asking us to come out and speak at their R.E.I.A’s. We have had two or three different cities that we are looking to get into and that will be coming to you as the podcast continues.
Again, my name is Ray Bartle, I would like to thank everybody for joining us today, I hope you learned something today, and wholesaling is — it’s just a great way to get into the business. Like I said today, be a Rhino, don’t be a cow and wait to become hamburger.
David: That’s right.
Ray: Sitting there waiting for something to happen, don’t be sitting on the couch playing videos games all day talking about real estate, get out in the field — make offers, make offers. Last one — perfection is the enemy of progress. Come on, be a Rhino, just keep going forward and get your business going, and quit — I always tell people do something, do something. Again, thanks for your time, and hopefully you learned something today.
David: Awesome. Thanks for sharing Ray, we really appreciate it. Guys don’t forget to check us out, discountpropertyinvestor.com, some of the things that we mentioned that we are giving away in the freewholesalecourse.com today, was a repair estimate sheet. It’s very basic, very simple, one page; you can download it on freewholesalecourse.com. Also we have a very basic generic one page contract that we are going to be more than happy to share with you guys. Again —
Ray: Make sure it gets reviewed.
David: Make sure it gets reviewed; we are now lawyers by any means. But I have used it, it works, the whole point is that you don’t need to spend hours and days and weeks on a contract, you just need something on paper guys, and it is very simple.
So — that’s kind of a good wrap up of our episode today guys, Ray I want you to repeat that quote for me one more time. We are going to end with a quote.
Ray: Ok, “Be a Rhino, perfection is the enemy of progress” Go forward.
David: That’s right.
Ray: Thanks have a good day.
David: Thanks bye, bye.
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